[amsat-bb] ITAR vs cooperation? or bull..dozer;)

Luc Leblanc lucleblanc6 at videotron.ca
Tue Sep 8 00:44:10 PDT 2009

>From AMSAT-NA web page who was updated: 23 Aug, 09


AMSAT Files CJ Requests with US State Department

"AMSAT's involvement with P3-E halted in 2006 due to concerns over possible ITAR violations."

Did anyone can explain why is it possible to say "AMSAT's involvement with P3-E halted in 2006 due to concerns over possible ITAR 
violations" when i wrote about the memorandum (see below) on February 22 2007 as this paper has been signed prior to February 2007 in 2006?

Even if  ITAR does not apply to information related to general scientific, mathematical or engineering principles that is commonly taught 
in schools and colleges or information that is (legitimately) in the public domain. Nor does it apply to general marketing information or 
basic system descriptions. (see below)

How the cooperation between AMSAT-NA  and AMSAT-DL and AMSAT-UK stopped in 2006 when theses 3 gentlemens                              
Peter DB2OS  for AMSAT-DL, Rick W2GPS  for AMSAT-NA, Jim G3WGM for AMSAT-UK signed a memorandum of understanding and cooperation the same 
very year??? They where surely not all out of their mind in 2006 or it is something else?

And why asking in January 2009 3 years later for a V'oluntary Disclosure' (Not a VOLUNARY a typo on the AMSAT web page) when most of the 
amateur ham stuff is already in the public domain area? It is the same as if you are speeding and you go back to your police station 3 
years later telling them you violate the law 3 years ago!!! or is it a way to justify their inaction refusing to get any blame?

What it is the most intriguing is the time frame and the fact they relate the cooperation stopping to ITAR in 2006 when they signed a 
memorandum of understanding and cooperation at the same time? There is something here who does not added up.

Could be it is a way to try hiding their poor management past years record? or something we should ask to Gomez Addams or to his lovely 
pale skin and a Gothic appearance wife Morticia Addams? 

It is a lot of good questions to be ask at the next AMSAT-NA symposium Board of Directors general meeting in October?

Memorandum of Understanding between

AMSAT-DL for the last five years has been building the P3-E spacecraft to be 
launched into a HEO and intended as a replacement for previous P3 satellites. 
It's purpose is to facilitate communication between radio-amateurs worldwide 
and at the same time to test and verify technologies and procedures needed for 
the P5-A mission to Mars. AMSAT-DL to this day has invested about 500,000 Euro 
into this project.

AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-UK wish to contribute to the P3-E project, primarily with 
the goal to have the launch of P3-E as early as possible in order to give to 
their respective members the use of the communication services provided by P3-

It is recognized that the capability of AMSAT-DL to raise funds limits the 
speed of the development of P3-E. In order to make a launch possible in 2008, 
AMSAT-DL has an immediate need of 40,000 Euro and an estimated need of ~200,000 

Euro prior to the actual launch-date. AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-UK wish to help with 
the raising of these requirements by providing 30,000 Euro (AMSAT-NA) and 
10,000 Euro (AMSAT-UK) in the near future. Furthermore, they wish to contribute 

by raising additional funding as the actual launch arrangements materialize.

In order to achieve an effective cooperation in the funding effort and the 
construction and launching of P3-E, the following details to implement the 
cooperation are agreed:

   1. The three AMSAT organizations will closely coordinate their activities 
and monitor progress of the project by frequent mutual consultations on the 
telephone. To this end the three parties will hold nominally a monthly 
telephone conference to review the status of the project and to identify 
problem areas. At this time the three organizations will be represented by 
Rick, Jim and Peter at these telephone-conferences.

   2. According to need, the three organizations agree to hold sufficiently 
frequent meetings in person to review the project status. These meetings are 
assumed to be desirable with a frequency of 6-12 month between them.

   3. It is understood by all three organizations that procuring a timely 
launch for P3-E is one of the bigger challenges of the project. AMSAT-DL is 
concentrating major efforts of procuring a launch with Arianespace, while AMSAT-
NA is trying to develop a launch opportunity within the USA. All parties 
recognize that major progress in funding is contingent on a firm launch 
agreement. All parties further recognize that a timely construction and 
integration of P3-E is critically dependent on all parties giving highest 
priority to fulfilling their respective commitments.

   4. All three organizations understand that funding progress is dependent on 
effective information dissemination worldwide. To this end the three 
organizations reiterate their mutual agreement that each organization can 
publish all P3-E related publications of the other two organizations in their 
respective public organs without special permission. Furthermore, each 
organization is free to prepare 'official' statements about the project, but 
these publications must be agreed with the project management of P3-E (AMSAT- 
DL) prior to publication. Requests for agreement to publish will be sent to 
Peter (or another person chosen by him), who will use best efforts to respond 
within 7 days with an answer. With other publications by individual authors no 
such agreement is necessary provided that the context makes it is clear that 
the publication is not an official declaration by the project management or 

   5. AMSAT-DL reiterates that the operational use of P3-E will be primarily to 
provide amateur radio communication services. But all parties also understand 
that the spacecraft is a dual service satellite, and that AMSAT-DL retains the 
right to occasionally reduce the provision of amateur radio services if work 
towards P5-A requires this. A-DL will use due diligence to minimize the impact 
of the P5-A requirements on the provision of amateur services.

For AMSAT-DL                For AMSAT-NA                For AMSAT-UK

Peter DB2OS                 Rick W2GPS J                 Jim G3WGM

Just check here for the proof


The ITAR public domain exclusions

§ 120.11 Public domain.
(a) Public domain means information
which is published and which is generally
accessible or available to the
(1) Through sales at newsstands and
(2) Through subscriptions which are
available without restriction to any individual
who desires to obtain or purchase
the published information;
(3) Through second class mailing
privileges granted by the U.S. Government;
(4) At libraries open to the public or
from which the public can obtain documents;
(5) Through patents available at any
patent office;
(6) Through unlimited distribution at
a conference, meeting, seminar, trade
show or exhibition, generally accessible
to the public, in the United
(7) Through public release (i.e., unlimited
distribution) in any form (e.g.,
not necessarily in published form) after
approval by the cognizant U.S. government
department or agency (see also
§ 125.4(b)(13) of this subchapter);
(8) Through fundamental research in
science and engineering at accredited
institutions of higher learning in the
U.S. where the resulting information is
ordinarily published and shared broadly
in the scientific community. Fundamental
research is defined to mean
basic and applied research in science
and engineering where the resulting information
is ordinarily published and
shared broadly within the scientific
community, as distinguished from research
the results of which are restricted
for proprietary reasons or specific
U.S. Government access and dissemination
controls. University research
will not be considered fundamental
research if:
(i) The University or its researchers
accept other restrictions on publication
of scientific and technical information
resulting from the project or
activity, or
(ii) The research is funded by the
U.S. Government and specific access
and dissemination controls protecting
information resulting from the research
are applicable.
(b) [Reserved]

PS. Did any one ever heard of any report about the memorandum and the way it works since 2006?


Luc Leblanc VE2DWE
Skype VE2DWE


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