[eagle] Re: 2008 Symposium deadline

Bob McGwier rwmcgwier at gmail.com
Mon Sep 8 12:33:45 PDT 2008

We do not have a leg to stand on to force anyone to do anything overseas.
We do not own AMSAT-UK or AMSAT-DL and we have not been in the driver's seat
in decades.  We don't get the launches.  Our best efforts here to get a
launch for a full satellite have produced lots of heat, some excitement but
no light at the end of the tunnel. So the "force them" will not work here,
nor will getting on knees and begging.  It is simply not in their interests
to sign a TAA that conforms to the rules.

There is a kind of air of secrecy built up here.  It is that way for
multiple reasons but the ones that I can be kindest to are the fear of
making enough noise that we begin to be looked at in a serious way for our
decades of not having so much as a written policy much less compliance
(other than "EFF IT"), and we do not want to say or do anything that would
offend our overseas compatriots while we are trying to work out the details.
There are less constructive things I might comment on but the two I have
named are credible and serious.

It is hard.  Period.  It is not easy.  But it is so important that anything
that resembles giving up is contrary to the needs of the organization.  For
my part in this dereliction, I most sincerely apologize.


ARRL SDR Working Group Chair
Member: ARRL, AMSAT, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats,
"Trample the slow ....  Hurdle the dead"

-----Original Message-----
From: John B. Stephensen [mailto:kd6ozh at comcast.net] 
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 3:25 PM
To: Bob McGwier; 'Bdale Garbee'
Cc: 'Bill Ress'; 'Howard Long'; 'Frank Brickle'; eagle at amsat.org; 'Daniel
Subject: Re: [eagle] Re: 2008 Symposium deadline

What led me to beleive that nothing had been done is that there is no 
published policy regarding ITAR and others seem to be confused about its 

Ten years ago, I worked with my employer's contracts manager and an outside 
attorney to come up with a policy for the development of encryption software

for their products. Since they wanted to sell in the U.S. and Europe, 
including government customers, this ended up being complicated. A big 
problem is that the federal regulations are only part of the law. The rest 
is precidents set by rulings in federal court. Consequently, all he could 
tell us about some schemes to divide up development resources worldwide to 
comply with the law was that it was a "gray area" and untested in court. 
After 4-5 iterations we ended up with a written policy. We did have to force

foreign nationals in overseas subsidiaries to comply with U.S. law.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob McGwier" <rwmcgwier at gmail.com>
To: "'Bdale Garbee'" <bdale at gag.com>
Cc: "'John B. Stephensen'" <kd6ozh at comcast.net>; "'Bill Ress'" 
<bill at hsmicrowave.com>; "'Howard Long'" <eagle at howardlong.com>; "'Frank 
Brickle'" <brickle at pobox.com>; <eagle at amsat.org>; "'Daniel Schultz'" 
<n8fgv at usa.net>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 16:11 UTC
Subject: RE: [eagle] Re: 2008 Symposium deadline

> We paid extremely high powered lawyers in D.C. to give us advice.  The 
> chief
> executive worked for hours with a lawyer, who is a member of AMSAT,  who 
> put
> himself into the same committees and so forth as the other high powered
> lawyers.  Detailed technical assistance agreements complying with the 
> letter
> of ITAR were drawn up and rejected by AMSAT-UK and AMSAT-DL with cause. 
> It
> is UTTERLY ridiculous to bind entities outside the U.S., not acting in the
> U.S.,  to obey our laws when they are not in the U.S.  Strictly speaking,
> we are requiring them to foreswear ever even accidentally doing an 
> exported,
> DEEMED EXPORT being the most aggregious example.
> Following this failure,  I am not aware of any other activity.  We made no
> unofficial or official requests of anyone in a position of authority 
> inside
> the U.S. government who could help us officially.
> To saw we have done nothing is false.  We have not been effective and
> knowing this was a very tough nut to crack,  the board and senior-officers
> did not do their duty, which was to bring out a no holds barred assault on
> this.  Some are afraid of getting ourselves above "see" level and 
> attracting
> the wrong kind of attention to past activities.
> I have been quite upset about the lack of progress on this for some time 
> but
> I am as guilty as anyone in a position of responsibility in this
> organization for not doing whatever it took to work this.  I understood 
> how
> utterly debilitating this was.  Every time I have said something about it,
> I have been effectively ignored or asked "what do you suggest?".  In other
> words, we have stopped trying.
> Bob
> ARRL SDR Working Group Chair
> Member: ARRL, AMSAT, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats,
> "Trample the slow ....  Hurdle the dead"
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bdale Garbee [mailto:bdale at gag.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:53 AM
> To: Bob McGwier
> Cc: 'John B. Stephensen'; 'Bill Ress'; 'Howard Long'; 'Frank Brickle';
> eagle at amsat.org; 'Daniel Schultz'
> Subject: Re: [eagle] Re: 2008 Symposium deadline
> On Mon, 2008-09-08 at 10:31 -0400, Bob McGwier wrote:
>> Why do you not think we have already done this?
> I've certainly had the impression that the issue was being worked on
> some level, but I don't recall seeing anything like a report or summary
> of the current situation.  Did I miss it somewhere, or is this
> assumption simply the result of not everyone knowing what has and has
> not been done on the ITAR topic?
> 73 - Bdale, KB0G

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