[eagle] Re: 70 cm Receiver IF Spurs - Problem Solved

Jim Sanford wb4gcs at amsat.org
Sun Jun 17 19:34:42 PDT 2007


Team:
I  ABSOLUTELY agree with Juan's assertion that
... it needs to be free of radiated and conducted EMI in both directions. 

We need to resolve these issues, and then issue such resolution as a 
requirement.

Size of incoming power conductor is a spacecraft issue, that we need to 
get into the Black Forest notes and subsequent requirements.

Eliminating the radiated noise is a CAN-Do! issue and should be solved 
-- especially if it is as simple as replacing a radiating inductor with 
a shielded inductor.

In my professional life, I've seen a similar situation, where such an 
inductor in a VERY sensitive instrumentation system was picking up 
noise, a fatal flaw.  Replacing the one component with a shielded 
equivalent solved the problem.

We should at least TRY such an approach. .. .
Juan, I'd like you to do the swap and then give us before and after 
plots and analysis.  That will conclusively prove or disprove the issue.

Thanks & 73,
Jim
wb4gcs at amsat.org


Juan Rivera wrote:

> Chuck,
>
>  
>
> At least in this particular case jumpering across the switch didn't 
> work.  (See my log for today on Eaglepedia.)
>
>  
>
> Since the CAN-Do module is such an imbedded and pervasive component in 
> Eagle, I think it needs to be free of radiated and conducted EMI in 
> both directions.  It's a great little interface but I'm afraid it has 
> some very serious shortcomings at the moment:
>
>  
>
> 1.    Conducts noise back towards the power source where it can impact 
> other loads on the same power bus (one ohm of resistance out there was 
> enough to screw up the receiver.)
>
> 2.    Provides a noisy +14 to its load (the noise went right through 
> the receiver like fat through a goose and ended up in the IF as spurs.)
>
> 3.    Radiates EMI that can adversely affect sensitive circuitry at a 
> distance of over two inches from the rear of the PCB
>
>  
>
> Attempting to mitigate those problems will put a huge burden on every 
> payload and the adverse impact might not be fully known until 
> integration and test, if then.  Trying to go back and band-aid 
> something like this after all the payloads come together would be a 
> very bad corner to get backed into.  You could do what I did and 
> sacrifice 2 inches of space inside every module chassis, or you could 
> try to build a two-section chassis and filter the lines passing 
> through the bulkhead, adding complexity.  But that doesn't address the 
> potential impact to another payload from the spikes that are 
> propagated back towards the common +14 bus.
>
>  
>
> I would expect that every receiver, block up or down converter, 
> transmitter, or amplifier will be impacted by this noise in a similar 
> way.  In my opinion this is a global problem that needs a global 
> solution.  If the CAN-Do module can be made EMI-free, or meet a yet to 
> be determined EMI spec, then all of the payloads teams can start their 
> design with a known environment.
>
>  
>
> If the CAN-Do module is not modified then I think the only safe thing 
> to do is to build each payload so it can function using CAN-Do 
> switched +14 volt power (the receiver can't in the Rev-A 
> configuration.)  If your payload can function with that noisy +14, 
> without any adverse impact, then it is probably a pretty well 
> protected circuit and should be fairly immune to whatever noise is 
> added to the source by conducted EMI from other loads on the power 
> bus.  It just seems simpler and cleaner to fix the problem at the source.
>
>  
>
> I have an idea for a noise generator that I will stick on my log...  
> This could be the go/no go test for each payload.  I'll go sketch it 
> up and get it uploaded by about 2000 Pacific Time.
>
>  
>
> 73,
>
>  
>
> Juan
>
>  
>
>  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chuck Green [mailto:greencl at mindspring.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 5:51 PM
> To: juan-rivera at sbcglobal.net
> Cc: eagle at amsat.org; Bill Ress; Dave Black (Home); Dave Black (Work); 
> Dave hartzell; David Smith; Don Ferguson; Juan.Rivera (Work); 
> Samsonoff at Mac. Com
> Subject: Re: [eagle] 70 cm Receiver IF Spurs - Problem Solved
>
>  
>
> Hi Juan,
>
>  
>
> One of the purposes of the CAN-Do! was to provide a standard interface
>
> so that a module couldn't do something nasty and take out the entire
>
> satellite.  So custom mods to the CAN-Do! are not allowed.  Having said
>
> that, we have always assumed that a jumper across the CAN-Do! power
>
> switch would be installed for those modules that needed to be powered up
>
> no-matter-what.
>
>  
>
> Chuck
>
>  
>
> Juan Rivera wrote:
>
>> Chuck,
>
>> 
>
>> I don't want to tear into the CAN-Do module.  I feel like it is a 
> loaner and
>
>> not mine to modify.  It would be interesting to disconnect the switch and
>
>> the current monitor from the CAN-Do power input and move it to those user
>
>> pins as you suggest.  That might just work, but I also know they 
> don't want
>
>> to have multiple versions of the module floating around and this would be
>
>> one.
>
>> 
>
>> We also can't loose sight of the radiated noise from that inductor.  
> I can
>
>> see signs of EMI if it gets within 2 inches of the sensitive areas of the
>
>> receiver.
>
>> 
>
>> 73,
>
>> 
>
>> Juan
>
>> 
>
>> 
>
>> 73,
>
>> 
>
>> Juan
>
>> 
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Chuck Green [mailto:greencl at mindspring.com]
>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 9:18 AM
>
>> To: juan-rivera at sbcglobal.net
>
>> Subject: Re: [eagle] 70 cm Receiver IF Spurs - Problem Solved
>
>> 
>
>> Hi Juan,
>
>> 
>
>> I am impressed with your testing and analysis.
>
>> 
>
>> I find it curious that you were unable to filter the power from the
>
>> CAN-Do! .  But switching noise is notorious for being difficult to
>
>> filter.  So maybe that is something to just forget. But in a total
>
>> system (satellite) it may not be possible to forget.  We may need to
>
>> find a way to filter the power for sensitive modules even if not using
>
>> power from the CAN-Do! ; in which case, such a filter may also filter
>
>> the noise from the CAN-Do! .
>
>> 
>
>> If your analysis is correct, and it certainly seems to be, then it would
>
>> also seem possible to remove the switch from the CAN-Do! (not just
>
>> bypass it) and rout your clean power source through the CAN-Do! current
>
>> measurement circuit thus saving having to do this in the module.
>
>> 
>
>> Great work!  And thanks.
>
>> 
>
>> Chuck
>
>> 
>
>> 
>
>> 
>
>> Juan Rivera wrote:
>
>>  
>
>>> Hi Chuck,
>
>>> 
>
>>> Bad news I'm afraid.  See my report for details...  I've sent out a link
>
>>>    
>
>> to
>
>>  
>
>>> the group.
>
>>> 
>
>>> 73,
>
>>> 
>
>>> Juan
>
>>> 
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>
>>> From: Chuck Green [mailto:greencl at mindspring.com]
>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 8:57 AM
>
>>> To: juan-rivera at sbcglobal.net
>
>>> Cc: eagle at amsat.org; David Smith; Dave Black (Work); Dave Black (Home);
>
>>> Samsonoff at Mac. Com; Juan.Rivera (Work)
>
>>> Subject: Re: [eagle] 70 cm Receiver IF Spurs - Problem Solved
>
>>> 
>
>>> Hi Juan,
>
>>> 
>
>>> This is fantastic!
>
>>> 
>
>>> Please try one more experiment.  Pass the module current through the
>
>>> current measuring circuit on the CAN-Do! while bypassing the switch
>
>>> transistor (you could just short across the switch transistor) and see
>
>>> if the problem reappears.
>
>>> 
>
>>> If you end up having to use the user pins, you will need to add current
>
>>> measuring circuitry to your module.  While this is no big deal, its one
>
>>> more thing you might not have to do.
>
>>> 
>
>>> Chuck
>
>>> 
>
>>> Juan Rivera wrote:
>
>>>   
>
>>>    
>
>>>> All,
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> The 70 cm Receiver spur problem has been solved.  Click here
>
>>>> 
>
>>>>    
>
>>>>      
>
>> <http://www.juanr.com/pages/hobbies/ham_radio/Eagle/CAN-Do_Noise_Troubleshoo
>
>>  
>
>>> ting.htm>
>
>>>  
>
>>>    
>
>>>> for details.
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> 73,
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> Juan
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> WA6HTP
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>> 
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>
>>>> Via the Eagle mailing list courtesy of AMSAT-NA
>
>>>> Eagle at amsat.org
>
>>>> http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/eagle
>
>>>>  
>
>>>>    
>
>>>>      
>
>>> 
>
>>>  
>
>>>    
>
>> 
>
>> 
>
>> 
>
>>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Via the Eagle mailing list courtesy of AMSAT-NA
>Eagle at amsat.org
>http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/eagle
>  
>
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