[amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO

Edward Cole kl7uw at acsalaska.net
Tue Jul 7 00:37:39 PDT 2009

Sometimes it pays to go on vacation (600+ back e-mail).

The lunar link analysis has been done on Amsat-bb 
at least 4 or 5 times in the last ten years.  I 
have a spreadsheet program that can be used for 
any point to point communication in space (plug in your own numbers)

Since we assume to ride to the Moon with NASA 
(manned flight) it could be buried on the Moon 
with only antenna exposed (solves some of the 
temperature and radiation issues).  Make it the 
emergency comm system for the astronauts like 
ARISS provides on the ISS (selling point to 
NASA).  Make it a digital passband or 
multi-channel system.  NOT a single-channel FM 
repeater like AO-51 (consider have the world's 
hams trying to use that channel at the same time!).

Microwave only make sense.  Maybe use the 
CC-rider concept from Eagle.  Now it has Emcomm 
potential. as well.  With the 2.5 second RTLT 
time delay text modes make more sense.  Digital voice at minimum.

30 to 50w uplink transmitter would do it (play with the calculator, above).

Try for 2-foot dish on the earth station.  Moon 
gravity is 1/6 earth and no wind (light weight 
dish will work).  Or perhaps a electronically 
steared panel array.  Auto-tracking by carrier 
from NASA DSN tracking network (let them have 3-4 channels exclusive use).

73, Ed - KL7UW

At 08:43 PM 7/2/2009, Greg D. wrote:

>Hi Kenneth, et al,
>Would this be a good opportunity to dust off the 
>low data rate digital package that was planned 
>for Eagle?  If I recall, it was to be 
>multi-service and operate at relatively low s/n 
>levels.  Replace the antennas, of course, and 
>the radio power amps.  The resulting Earth 
>station should still be quite affordable.
>Just a thought,
>Greg  KO6TH
> > From: kenneth.g.ransom at nasa.gov
> > To: ka1rrw at yahoo.com; amsat-bb at amsat.org
> > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 21:29:47 -0500
> > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
> >
> > I realize this is still very early in the 
> dreaming stage but it would be nice to start 
> seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about 
> starting with a blank worksheet that outlines 
> the desirements and requirements. This would 
> give folks some specifics to address.
> >
> > *LUNAR System*
> > Modulation type:
> > Mode:
> > Power source:
> > Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band):
> > Lunar TX antenna (type and gain):
> > Lunar receiver (type and band):
> > Lunar RX antenna (type and gain):
> > Lunar controller (type and capability):
> >
> > Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched:
> > Length of time the system is expected to operate:
> > Periods that the system is expected to be available for use:
> >
> > Once you have some general ideas as to what 
> the items are then you will have a good idea of 
> the total weight, size and what it will cost to 
> buy, build and certify for spaceflight. It 
> would also be nice to know what sort of station 
> equipment would be needed to use this lunar system.
> >
> > *EARTH Station*
> > Description of minimal Earth station capable 
> of operation through above mentioned lunar system:
> > Transmitter (type, output power and band):
> > TX antenna (type and gain):
> > Receiver (type and band):
> > RX antenna (type and gain):
> > Antenna tracking system:
> >
> > The above should allow for a realistic guess 
> at the number of users willing to and capable of operating through the system.
> >
> > Kenneth
> > ________________________________________
> > From: amsat-bb-bounces at amsat.org 
> [amsat-bb-bounces at amsat.org] On Behalf Of MM [ka1rrw at yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:14 PM
> > To: amsat-bb at amsat.org
> > Subject: [amsat-bb]  Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
> >
> >  High orbit launch prices
> >
> > It is hard to find exact values for the price 
> per kilo to a geo-stationery orbit.  I did find 
> a few old numbers on the web suggesting that 
> around the year 2000 prices were approximately 
> 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo.  I can only 
> assume it will cost more today’s 2009 
> dollars.  If we were to build our own 
> Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep 
> the weight down to the same weight of AO-40 
> (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD 
> million in launching fees (plus 
> inflation).  That is not including the cost of 
> the satellite.  A ballpark Geo-stationary 
> amateur radio satellite and launching fees 
> would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG).
> >
> > If you have an extra 40 million kicking 
> around then go ahead and build us a Geo 
> satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk 
> them into attaching a Micro Satellite to the 
> next geo satellite for Free great, go for it.
> >
> > I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone 
> at Huges, so I am looking into the piggyback 
> options.  Let some other company pay the big 
> bucks for the flight and navigation and just tag along for the ride.
> >
> > In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned 
> Landers to the Moon.  All we need to do is 
> convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo 
> micro-satellite to the moon lander and use some 
> of their power and antennas, etc.
> >
> > Just look at the Huge Savings $$$
> > No navigation system (we have never had much 
> luck at building our own rocket motors (AO-10- 
> damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused 
> a premature reentry and AO-40 Kaboom)
> >
> > No command and control RF links (just command 
> between the Microsat and existing command and control system)
> >
> > NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope)
> >
> > Assuming a good landing, there will not be 
> any need for periodic orbital changes.
> >
> > It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited.
> > I believe that Putting the effort into 
> building a Moon qualified micro satellite seems 
> to be the most economical path to take.  And 
> will provide the greatest return on our investment.
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > Miles WF1F  MarexMG.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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