# [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future

i8cvs domenico.i8cvs at tin.it
Fri Jul 3 07:41:48 PDT 2009

```Hi Joe,

The specification given by Miles WF1F is for a Lander transmit power of 5 to 10 watt in 70 cm from the moon.My calculation shoves that a single SSB station to be received in 70 cm with a S/N ratio of 10 dB on the earth a power of 10 watt in 70 cm is necessary on the moon.

If you like an IF window 10 time greater i.e. 250 KHz to accomodate more stations at the same time than the Lander transponder must have the capability to get around 100 watt wich is out the WF1F specifications.

73" de

i8CVS Domenico
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe
To: i8cvs
Cc: MM ; kg4zlb at gmail.com ; AMSAT-BB ; Jack K.
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future

This is all good except for one thing,

The IF window is 10 times too small.

Look at the mess the FM single channel birds are with their tiny surface foot print.  Imagine now a whole hemisphere worth of people trying to use it at once.  The thing would be useless

i8cvs wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "MM" <ka1rrw at yahoo.com>
To: <kg4zlb at gmail.com>; <amsat-bb at amsat.org>; "Jack K." <kd1pe.1 at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:31 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] The Moon is our Future

We need a simple Mode-J transponder (2-meters up, 440 down).
Low power consumption.
Assume minimal antenna gain from the Lander (3 dBd on each antenna)
Assume transmitter power 5-10 watts.

Questions:
How much gain will be needed on earth for such a setup?
Can we build a working mockup in 1 year or less.

The Moon is within Reach.  Let’s Go for IT.

Miles WF1F   MarexMG.org

Hi Miles, WF1F

The gain of the 2 meters antenna on the Lander is 3 dBd = 5.14 dBi
Assume that the Noise Figure of the 2 meter receiver is 0.5 dB = 35 kelvin
and the sky temperature as seen by the 2 meter Lander antenna looking at
the earth is conservatively 290 kelvin but (probably more ).
The isotropic path loss earth-moon in 2 meters at an average distance of
380.000 km is 187 dB
You don't specify the IF bandwidth of your transponder so that for
simplicity I will assume that only one QSO will be possible in SSB and 3
on CW in a total BW = 2.5 KHz
With the above data the calculated Noise Floor (KTB) of the above 2 meter
We assume to use an earth 2 meters antenna with a gain of 13 dBi and a power
of 100 watt pep in 2 meters.

Earth TX  power  100 watt.............................+ 50 dBm
Earth antenna gain............................. .............+ 13 dB
------
Earth EIRP.....................................................+ 63 dBm
2 m  isotropic attenuation earth-moon..............-187 dB
------
Isoptropic power received on the moon .........- 124 dBm
2 meters Lander antenna gain.........................+     5 dBi
------
Power applied to the 2 m Lander receiver......- 119 dBm
Lander receiver 2 m Noise Floor...................-  139 dBm
------
S/N ratio available from the Lander receiver.. +  20 dB

COMMENT:
With a 2 meter signal +20 dB above the noise floor the
70 cm TX on the Lander transponder is in condition to
supply a noise-less power between 5 to 10 watt pep to
the 70 cm TX antenna.

The gain of the 70 cm antenna on the Lander is 3 dBd = 5.14 dBi
and the 70 cm power is 10 watt pep
Assume that the Noise Figure of the 70 cm earth receiver is
0.5 dB = 35 kelvin and the sky temperature as seen by the 70 cm
antenna looking at the moon  is 75 kelvin
Assume that the antenna gain of the 70 cm earth receiver is 18 dBi
The isotropic path loss earth-moon in 70 cm at an average distance of
380.000 km is 197 dB
With the above data the calculated Noise Floor (KTB) of the 70 cm

Lander 70 cm TX power 10 watt...................+ 40 dBm
Lander antenna gain.......................................+  5 dBi
------
70 cm EIRP from the moon...........................+ 45 dBm
70 cm moon-earth isotropic attenuation .........-197 dB
------
70 cm power available in to isotropic antenna -152 dBm
70 cm earth receiving antenna gain..................+ 18 dBi
------
70 cm power on input of the earth receiver.....-134 dBm
70 cm Noise Floor of the earth receiver..........-144 dBm
------
S/N ratio at the output of  70 cm receiver.......+ 10 dB

COMMENT:
Using a Lander transponder on the moon with 2 meters and
70 cm antenna's gain in the order of 5 dBi will not produce
serious problems of pointing at the earth due of libration.
If the Lander transponder is capable to develope 10 watt
pep and the IF bandwidth  is very narrow in the order of
2.5 KHz it is possible to accomodate one SSB QSO or 3 CW
QSO just using the actually available TX and RX equipments for
satellite communications  i.e.
For the uplink in 2 meters 100 watt pep and a 13 dBi antenna gain
For the downlink in 70 cm a receiving system with an overall Noise
Figure of  0.5 dB and antenna gain of 18 dBi
The rate of change of the frequency due of doppler shift in 2 meters
and 70 cm is very slow and easily manually compensated even into
only a 2.5 KHz bandwidth
The antenna polarization is very important because a linear signal
transmitted from the earth or from the moon by stations located in
different continents can be reversed from Vertical to Horizontal
polarization so that at least on the earth circular RHCP and LHCP
switchable polarization is recommended.

Best 73" de

i8CVS Domenico

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