[amsat-bb] Re: [SPAM] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO

Joe nss at mwt.net
Fri Jul 3 04:10:17 PDT 2009

James French wrote:

>We have been discussing building and packaging a system that is
>SEPARATE from the rest of the landing craft that would take up weight
>and not supply ANY benefit to any mission support.
>What if we change that to from just asking for a FREE ride to helping
>provide mission specific support ALONG with supplying the band width
>for our needs? If we could build a package that would support the
>PRIMARY mission and then could be switched over for our needs during or
>after the mission, don't you think that we MAY get a better
>consideration for a FREE ride for these ideas?
I like that,

>Domenico, I8CVS, brings up a good point about IF bandwidth also.
>1) How many QSOs do we want to be able to have on this?
>   FM would be a HUGE waste of resources (even though a modulated CW
>   beacon may be an idea to entice some of the FM users).
>  a) 2 SBB/6 CW?
>  b) 5 SSB/15 CW?
>  c) 10 SSB/30 CW?
How about PSK?  I've seen like 20 of them in a single ssb window, and 
pretty deep into the noise still too.  something to think about?

>2) How much electrical power do we need to supply for each of these
>   amounts?
>3) IS it feasible to have that many or do we have to limit ourselves?
>Kenneth brings up good points also.
>1) How LONG do we PLAN this to be usable?
>2)  Power source - solar? nuclear? battery (even though I don't
>    think they would last very long, still have to consider them here)?
>3) WHAT do we need to do to certify this package for flight?
>4) HOW many do we need to build to get ONE certified as flight ready
>   hardware?
>5) How do we control it?
>6) How complicated do we want to go?
>As far as the Earth station, the bigger the better as always. But
>anything above 23cm would be feasible EVEN for that antenna restricted
>home station that is becoming the norm now a days.
>45 element 1.2GHz antenna:
>Boom Length: 144 inches
>Weight: 5 pounds
>Gain: 20dbi
>3db Beamwidth: 16 degrees
>52 element 2.4GHz loop antenna:
>Boom Length: 96 inches
>Weight: 3 pounds
>Gain: 21 dbi
>3db Beamwidth: 14 degrees
>45 element 3.4GHz antenna:
>Boom Length: 60 inches
>Weight: 1.5 pounds
>Gain: 20dbi
>3db Beamwidth: 16 degrees
>These are figures that I have handy for antennas I already have. Each of
>these antennas can be had from Directive Systems for about one hundred
>and fifty dollars each as a kit, more if you want it already assembled.
>I give these as EXAMPLES to help out. Preamps and amplifiers are extra.
>But even those are cheap if you want to tinker some. I found a 75 watt
>2.4GHz amplifier for 20 dollars at Dayton this year that would give me
>about half that if I run it on 12 volts instead of 26 volts.
>1.2GHz/2.4GHz antennas: 300 dollars
>1.2GHz preamp:          50 dollars
>2.4GHz amplifier:       25 dollars
>sequencer:              60 dollars
>1.2GHz transverter:     100 dollars (W1GHZ type)
>2.4GHz transverter:     100 dollars (W1GHZ type)
>Misc. parts:            100 dollars
>TOTAL:                  735 dollars (+/-)
>This is presuming that the station ALREADY has a 2m SSB radio
>and no homebrewing other than putting together the W1GHZ transverters,
>sequencer, 2.4GHZ amplifier, and antenna mounting hardware. So cost CAN
>be kept down to about 1000 dollars, maybe even less than the 735 dollar
>figure if the station is very creative (possibly around the 500 dollar
>mark then).
>If the plan stays at using 2m and 70cms, antennas do get bulkier and
>harder to handle for teardown and setup. ( I know - I am preaching to
>the choir here...<L>)
>Figures are based on what I already have handy, so I may have to add or
>change depending on what bands are used.
>James W8ISS
>On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 21:29 -0500, Ransom, Kenneth G. (JSC-OC)[BARRIOS
>>I realize this is still very early in the dreaming stage but it would be
>>nice to start seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about starting with
>>a blank worksheet that outlines the desirements and requirements. This would
>>give folks some specifics to address.
>>*LUNAR System*
>>Modulation type:
>>Power source:
>>Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band):
>>Lunar TX antenna (type and gain): 
>>Lunar receiver (type and band):
>>Lunar RX antenna (type and gain): 
>>Lunar controller (type and capability):
>>Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched:
>>Length of time the system is expected to operate:
>>Periods that the system is expected to be available for use:
>>Once you have some general ideas as to what the items are then you will have
>>a good idea of the total weight, size and what it will cost to buy, build and
>>certify for spaceflight. It would also be nice to know what sort of station 
>>equipment would be needed to use this lunar system.
>>*EARTH Station*
>>Description of minimal Earth station capable of operation through above 
>>mentioned lunar system:
>>Transmitter (type, output power and band):
>>TX antenna (type and gain): 
>>Receiver (type and band):
>>RX antenna (type and gain): 
>>Antenna tracking system:
>>The above should allow for a realistic guess at the number of users 
>>willing to and capable of operating through the system.
>>From: amsat-bb-bounces at amsat.org [amsat-bb-bounces at amsat.org] On Behalf
>>Of MM [ka1rrw at yahoo.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:14 PM
>>To: amsat-bb at amsat.org
>>Subject: [amsat-bb]  Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
>> High orbit launch prices
>>It is hard to find exact values for the price per kilo to a geo-stationery
>>orbit.  I did find a few old numbers on the web suggesting that around the
>>year 2000 prices were approximately 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo.  I can
>>only assume it will cost more today’s 2009 dollars.  If we were to build
>>our own Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep the weight down to
>>the same weight of AO-40 (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD
>>million in launching fees (plus inflation).  That is not including the cost
>>of the satellite.  A ballpark Geo-stationary amateur radio satellite and
>>launching fees would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG).
>>If you have an extra 40 million kicking around then go ahead and build us a
>>Geo satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk them into attaching a
>>Micro Satellite to the next geo satellite for Free great, go for it.
>>I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into
>>the piggyback options.  Let some other company pay the big bucks for the flight
>>and navigation and just tag along for the ride.
>>In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned Landers to the Moon.  All we need to
>>do is convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo micro-satellite to the moon
>>lander and use some of their power and antennas, etc.
>>Just look at the Huge Savings $$$
>>No navigation system (we have never had much luck at building our own rocket
>>motors (AO-10- damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused a premature
>>reentry and AO-40 Kaboom)
>>No command and control RF links (just command between the Microsat and
>>existing command and control system)
>>NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope)
>>Assuming a good landing, there will not be any need for periodic orbital
>>It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited.
>>I believe that Putting the effort into building a Moon qualified micro
>>satellite seems to be the most economical path to take.  And will provide
>>the greatest return on our investment.
>>Miles WF1F  MarexMG.org
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